What it is NOT is an epistemological stance or idealism or any other stance where reality supervenes on mind or concepts. I would think an epistemological realist's tools would be limited to things such as parsimony, probabilistic hypotheses, inference, etc. As I've said on a previous post. Or are you waiting for me to explain something else so that you can launch into criticism?I agree we need to ask tough questions but we need to be more than critics. 3, p. 30). This is why revelation can be visual, auditory, or any other sensation. The objective paradigm can be found in many places in LDS theology. I'm sure you cannot point to one serious study showing science manipulation for religious reasons is significant.In fact, the statement "we all have heard of data manipulation to meet the beliefs of scientists" I would say is bad science because something as extreme as this has the burden of needing to be backed by some data. In short, epistemological realism holds the explanation to distinct the difference between photograph and painting. Thus inspiration, or revelation, does not work through any one sense, but with the foundation of our senses. You can look up Joseph Campbell's definition at Wiki.I will agree with you that male orangutans may not do science, but they can be religious and oxymoronic. Baby steps... JS,Stop being a condenscending jerk.Work on this, it is a giant step:So, statements made by the true things (now gods are a thingy according to you) can be false, per Godel. This will show that Hegel’s brand of idealism is, and is intended to be, fully compatible with epistemological realism. But, could you apply Godel to religion, that all religions must be incomplete... and scientifically speaking, also fail in their purpose: per QL42, God was knowable objectively...You guys got to grow up and find someone who can deprogram you from the nonsense instilled in you all. and these people are more highly valued because they have had experiences that have given them knowledge that others do not have. I don't care if you feel compelled to worship smurf action figures, if you do great science I am more than happy to acknowledge your good work. 1. That is an idea that I do not find anywhere else in any religion, that in order for there to be the Divine there must be separate beings to verify the truth of the Divine. OK, now for my responses. "I think you and I must have read a different paragraph. Maybe two strict realists who don't have any data in common can't have a meaningful dialogue, but two idealists who are able to reason along the same lines can. Ancient1,What really cool idea do you have to offer this blog that we could all discuss and walk away feeling edified *besides* no more than criticism and name-calling. This is to say that a literal interpretation of LDS scripture would be perfectly consistent with an old earth, and these ideas can be taught (and have!) QL42,I find the last paragraph of your post troubling. I am very happy you raise these concerns. Idealism - Idealism - Approaches to understanding idealism: What idealism is may be clarified by approaching it in three ways: through its basic doctrines and principles, through its central questions and answers, and through its significant arguments. Ancient 1 (at least covertly I think) is talking about religion's tendency to produce people who reject reality in favor of nonsense (in some things, not all).Consider Mormonism. Look, I would like you to stick around since you present an alternative view which I appreciate but I do have to limit the level of personal attacks.All the most respected science venues will flat out reject papers if they contain blatant personal attacks. We do not!raedyohed, I don't know anything about you other than what you have posted here, so I don't know if you are LDS or not. Because of that we have knowledge and experience locked away in our spirits that usually we are not aware of. John,You know those guys and gals who study animals in wild? The difference between a realist and an idealist relies on their way to perceive things. I appreciate you trying to reach out and engage and I am happy to engage. "it defines western philosophy" -- Well, yes, that's the idea. I would like to keep things so that we can all be edified by each others comments without fear of personal attacks. Realism, very simply put, is the notion that something is real. On the other hand wouldn't an idealist rely on tools that are inseparable from the experience of the observer; anecdote, interpretation, emotion and so on? There is another strain in contemporary anti-realism, which comes from Hilary Putnam, and which is due to worries Both idealism and realism, as philosophical terms, deal with the relationship between our minds and the world. Through this discourse we can verify, through a process of "objective checks and balances" that both of our experiences are valid (or not valid). Realism in Epistemology. ancient1: Why don't you define what being smart is you pretend know-it-all! There is no weapon, argument or brainwashing that can force anyone to learn or know anything (cf. The coauthors of this blog can correct me if I'm wrong.Now, I will admit it there seems to be something about LDS culture where we enjoy speculating about all kinds of stuff. Ancient1,Okay, I see you may have issues with the peer review process and so I will humor you and ask: what would be a better "litmus test" that we can use to decide if science is being to contaminated by personal bias/beliefs than the traditional peer review process? The difference between a realist and an idealist is much more fundamental and has to do with what creates reality. Why don't you look at my comments on this post, and previous post of NN about Priest. Science at its core and in its history is against those ideas. They reflect their state of existence at that time, at that instant, and I do not judge them, I only respond.Let me close with this thought: before Jesus, there was no Christianity, before Buddha, there was no Middle Way, before Smith there was no LDS; I could go on. Epistemological idealism is a philosophical position, a subcategory of subjectivism, holding that what you know about an object exists only in your mind. As Will Rogers put it, "There are three kinds of men. :)First, let's make this easy: do you believe that there is anything that is true? Religion and science do not mix. As a result, we continue this tenuous relationship between mythological and literal interpretations. Madsen explains it) intuition is simply a manifestation of the cumulative knowledge that we have gained before this life (and some in this life). Although it is sometimes employed to argue in favor of metaphysical idealism, in principle epistemological idealism makes no claim about whether sense data are grounded in reality. Yeah, but I don't think I should have posted here, kinda off topic. In that case I can see how it would be hard to understand how intuition can be objective since it is in effect a manifestation of knowledge that is difficult (at best) or impossible (at worst) to trace. Ontological realism claims that at least a part of reality is ontologically independent of human minds. All you said, in a tactful way, is that religious people are delusional, thereby giving a perfect example of the point of QL42's post (i.e., you and Mormons cannot sit down and have a logical, rational discussion about God because you work from the assumption that Mormons are delusional and thus, not logical). *That* I would be interested in. I'm *more* interested in people who will propose interesting ideas than those who just go around being a critic calling everyone else idiots or brainwashed.So, do you have any interesting ideas to present that we can use to answer these questions or are you waiting for me to put forward answers so you can go back to name-calling and criticizing? The most influential critics of both epistemological and ontological idealism were G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell, but its critics also included the new realists. Jared & QL42,QL42 wrote: I am a epistemological realist of the Aristotelian empiricism persuasion. -- I never said that we were "not able to articulate" our knowledge, I just said that our words alone cannot convey to someone an experience with the Divine. :)If you are saying they are oxymorons in the sense of religion and science are in disagreement I would say that for me science is a subset of true religion. (philosophy) An approach to philosophical enquiry which asserts that direct and immediate knowledge can only be had of ideas or mental pictures. Further, you have fallen to lowest level of argument, and that is selective deconstruction, at which you fail miserably.Just as objective world view holder of yours, a megalomaniac demands that people follow. But I cannot pretend that Mormonism (or other organized religions) doesn't suffer from the same ills that cause people to blow up buildings, believe in a young earth/flat earth etc. 54 posts in this topic. I don't know how you classify this, in terms of fancy jargon, but ultimately I want to know if Godel implies a "theory of everything" is impossible. I need to go read the OP a couple more times! There are many different forms of relativism, with a great deal of variation in scope and differing degrees of controversy among them. My experience is that the peer review process, though flawed, does a good job weeding out science manipulated for *any* reason. "Ah, I agree this all should be questioned. Epistemological idealism can mean one of two unrelated positions: Everything we experience and know is of a mental nature, sense data in philosophical jargon. The most influential critics of both epistemological and ontological idealism were G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell, but its critics also included the new realists. But note that historically our own university (BYU) has a reputation for punishing those whose learning leads to questioning religious authority (which is why I think BYU is "closed minded" primarily).I do think it is justifiable to believe in God, and I think faith is important (it is in my own life) and I use Mormonism as my vehicle of choice to increase my faith. "Ontological realism" is can be used to mean the thesis that something real exists. We just have to figure out a way to do so with an elevated level of discourse. Just because something isn't required to do science does that make it a bad thing or pointless? The main ontological positions are Materialism and Idealism. epistemology metaphysics philosophy-of-mind history-of-philosophy idealism. Or, two people cannot talk rationally and logically about the taste of oranges if both have not tasted oranges.There's nothing about imposing beliefs on others. Idealism and Realism are two diverse concepts that are commonly used in various areas of life, like philosophy, politics or epistemology. Idealism as a philosophy came under heavy attack in the West at the turn of the 20th century. Would they distort science because it advances LDS positions? For that singular focus, you have to study eastern faiths (not religions), mostly of Indian subcontinent. No, unless you gather large amounts of data from many different people and then perform a statistical analysis of it. So we are off to a good start here. -- Not necessarily true, because this denies learning by observation. Keep in your memory banks of your brain.So, do you want to speak fo evils and goodness of your religion? Realism is the view in metaphysics that the physical world truly exists, and is separate from or our perception of it. But I will say this, most people voicing opinions on the internet are not doing science at a high enough quality to get through the peer review process. Perhaps a good place to start (or continue) is a speech given by Truman G. Madsen entitled On How We Know (if you follow the link you can listen to the speech, for free!, or read it). JS,You obsfucate very well. [2], Relationship between religion and science, Fourth Great Debate in international relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epistemological_idealism&oldid=969334672, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 24 July 2020, at 19:56. Basically, you are saying that you can impose your experience on others, as it is your belief that your experience is the pinnacle and rest do not matter.
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